1 2011-10-05T00:36:39 <brunosmartin> the rev['uuid'] became the REVID, and the item['uuid'] now is known as ITEMID in storage-ng, is that right?
2 2011-10-05T00:47:28 <ThomasWaldmann> sounds right
3 2011-10-05T00:49:24 *** brunosmartin
4 2011-10-05T01:29:42 *** brunosmartin
5 2011-10-05T02:06:57 *** raignarok
6 2011-10-05T05:45:47 *** brunosmartin
7 2011-10-05T06:58:02 *** MattMaker
8 2011-10-05T07:01:51 *** MattMaker
9 2011-10-05T09:17:32 *** greg_f
10 2011-10-05T10:03:46 *** raignarok
11 2011-10-05T10:08:57 *** raignarok
12 2011-10-05T10:09:43 *** raignarok
13 2011-10-05T10:15:09 *** raignarok
14 2011-10-05T10:15:28 *** raignarok
15 2011-10-05T10:32:06 *** raignarok_
16 2011-10-05T10:36:10 *** raignarok
17 2011-10-05T11:18:32 *** raignarok_
18 2011-10-05T14:40:40 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
19 2011-10-05T14:44:14 *** raignarok_
20 2011-10-05T14:49:21 *** raignarok_
21 2011-10-05T15:07:17 *** raignarok_
22 2011-10-05T15:09:17 *** raignarok_
23 2011-10-05T18:18:46 *** dave_largo
24 2011-10-05T18:51:52 <dave_largo> Hey guys, I'd like to inquire about the state of Moin 2.0. We have resources to help test and debug the new version, if it's working well enough to do so.
25 2011-10-05T18:57:31 <ThomasWaldmann> ah, great
26 2011-10-05T18:58:02 <ThomasWaldmann> dave_largo: soon I'll merge the storage-ng branch back into the default branch of the repo
27 2011-10-05T18:58:26 <dave_largo> ThomasWaldmann: I work for the CIty of Largo, we are using Moin right now extensively in IT
28 2011-10-05T18:58:42 <dave_largo> The biggest complaint though that i hear is about the speed of the GUI editor
29 2011-10-05T18:58:58 <dave_largo> I have a VM box built with OpenSuse 12.1 and I was going to try and test it
30 2011-10-05T18:59:01 <ThomasWaldmann> you mean until it is loaded?
31 2011-10-05T18:59:16 <dave_largo> No, typing is very slow at times in the GUI editor
32 2011-10-05T18:59:27 <dave_largo> They can type faster than the letters appear
33 2011-10-05T18:59:35 <ThomasWaldmann> browser?
34 2011-10-05T18:59:37 <dave_largo> This is in version 1.8
35 2011-10-05T18:59:49 <dave_largo> Firefox 4, 5 and now 6 have all been slow.
36 2011-10-05T18:59:57 <dave_largo> But, it's not all the time.
37 2011-10-05T19:00:09 <dave_largo> Very odd issue, that I haven't had time to debug.
38 2011-10-05T19:00:16 <ThomasWaldmann> you may want to upgrade to 1.9.x at some time, 1.8 will likely see its last update rather soon
39 2011-10-05T19:00:48 <dave_largo> Well, my plan was to try out 2.0 and move to it if it's far enough along
40 2011-10-05T19:01:02 <dave_largo> 1.9 won't install easily on our older server because the libraries are too old.
41 2011-10-05T19:01:10 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.8 -> 2.0 will likely be an unsupported scenario
42 2011-10-05T19:01:28 <dave_largo> Hmm, ok, I need to think about a plan then. An intermediate upgrade
43 2011-10-05T19:01:36 <ThomasWaldmann> so you would need to go 1.8 -> 1.9.x -> 2.0
44 2011-10-05T19:01:53 <ThomasWaldmann> which libraries do you mean?
45 2011-10-05T19:02:14 <dave_largo> I'd have to look over the release notes, what I remember of it was that something was too old.
46 2011-10-05T19:02:31 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, in general, moin2 is not for production yet, but you're welcome to play with it, help testing and developing it
47 2011-10-05T19:02:36 <dave_largo> lt's sitting on OpenSuse 11.0 right now, very old
48 2011-10-05T19:03:01 <dave_largo> Right understand, but if moin2 was in good enough shape for our IT people, we might just try and use it.
49 2011-10-05T19:03:05 <dave_largo> Just considering options now.
50 2011-10-05T19:03:18 <dave_largo> I hate to do 1.9 and then have to upgrade in a few months again
51 2011-10-05T19:03:42 <dave_largo> It's worked very well for us so far.
52 2011-10-05T19:03:44 <ThomasWaldmann> moin2 will be a rather big change, while 1.8 -> 1.9 is a rather small one
53 2011-10-05T19:04:04 <dave_largo> I love that it has no database, mediawiki was a PITA :)
54 2011-10-05T19:04:10 <ThomasWaldmann> and some stuff, like being able to run wsgi, will be same in 1.9 and 2
55 2011-10-05T19:04:38 <dave_largo> I tried to use the instructions for install of 1.9 on 2.0 and it didn't place files into /usr/local/share/moin as expected.
56 2011-10-05T19:04:44 <dave_largo> so it seems like some of the internals have changed.
57 2011-10-05T19:05:00 <dave_largo> all of the libaries and python stuff downloaded fine though
58 2011-10-05T19:05:09 <ThomasWaldmann> you should consider moin2 as different software
59 2011-10-05T19:05:23 <ThomasWaldmann> with some hopefully good working import from 1.9
60 2011-10-05T19:05:31 <dave_largo> Understand, and that's fine with us.
61 2011-10-05T19:05:47 <dave_largo> We haven't had a lot of users outside of IT use it yet, so it's mostly just geeks using it :)
62 2011-10-05T19:06:15 <ThomasWaldmann> for moin2, the only currently supported installation method is using virtualenv and pip, and it has even good docs describing that :)
63 2011-10-05T19:06:41 <dave_largo> Right, I saw that, but wanted to try an install as if it was the primary moin
64 2011-10-05T19:06:44 <ThomasWaldmann> what we need very much is help with UI
65 2011-10-05T19:06:47 <dave_largo> It's nice to have VM instances to play
66 2011-10-05T19:07:02 <ThomasWaldmann> while the internals got rather good recently, it still looks like crap :)
67 2011-10-05T19:07:31 <dave_largo> Then we have to weigh the plugins that won't come forward too.
68 2011-10-05T19:07:46 <dave_largo> I know the users have used seesaw a good deal
69 2011-10-05T19:09:15 <ThomasWaldmann> ah, and there are no plugins yet, btw
70 2011-10-05T19:09:42 <dave_largo> yeah, all part of the consideration
71 2011-10-05T19:09:44 <ThomasWaldmann> we looked at some "plugin systems", but somehow did not find a good one
72 2011-10-05T19:09:45 <dave_largo> I don't have a deadline
73 2011-10-05T19:09:49 <dave_largo> yeah
74 2011-10-05T19:10:05 <ThomasWaldmann> and we also do not consider the old one of moin 1.x a good one
75 2011-10-05T19:10:05 <dave_largo> the old one is working, but we would like to do the best long term solution
76 2011-10-05T19:11:01 <dave_largo> Normally after an upgrade, it's used for many years, so it might be best to work on and test 2.0
77 2011-10-05T19:11:06 <ThomasWaldmann> are you good in design/ui stuff (or some of your moin using colleagues)?
78 2011-10-05T19:11:46 <dave_largo> I build UI screens with glade here, but don't build web pages.
79 2011-10-05T19:11:56 <dave_largo> that's kind of the extent of my expertise
80 2011-10-05T19:12:10 <dave_largo> My python skills are mid-level maybe
81 2011-10-05T19:12:24 <ThomasWaldmann> (for 1.8 and 1.9 I also mostly stopped work. I'll likely make some next release at some time this year, just to bring out some past-last-release fixes)
82 2011-10-05T19:13:31 <dave_largo> If we are looking at <= 3 months, we might just jump to 2.0
83 2011-10-05T19:13:33 <ThomasWaldmann> well, you maybe can provide ui ideas :) but still we need someone good with css/html/js/jquery
84 2011-10-05T19:13:51 <dave_largo> Yeah, that's out of my expertise sadly, I mostly do system admin work now
85 2011-10-05T19:13:54 <ThomasWaldmann> 11.11.11 we'll have something :)
86 2011-10-05T19:14:09 <ThomasWaldmann> but rather some alpha/beta release than a final release
87 2011-10-05T19:14:10 <dave_largo> Not enough hours in the day to keep up with new technologies anymore sadly
88 2011-10-05T19:14:58 <ThomasWaldmann> do you use some not-so-often used moin 1.x features?
89 2011-10-05T19:15:15 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe ldap stuff?
90 2011-10-05T19:15:30 <dave_largo> I have xapian running, the rest of the configuration is pretty simple and basic
91 2011-10-05T19:15:36 <dave_largo> Nope, nothing like that
92 2011-10-05T19:15:43 <ThomasWaldmann> that will be whoosh in future
93 2011-10-05T19:16:04 <ThomasWaldmann> do you have lots of attachments?
94 2011-10-05T19:16:26 <ThomasWaldmann> (whoosh as in "whoosh the python search library")
95 2011-10-05T19:16:49 <dave_largo> Well, attachments are an interesting situation, we would love to use file:// , but Firefox doesn't let you do that anymore.
96 2011-10-05T19:17:05 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, file: is a pain, in general
97 2011-10-05T19:17:13 <dave_largo> Usually the documents are in local drives, that all users can share, so we aren't collaborating over the Internet
98 2011-10-05T19:17:24 <ThomasWaldmann> but maybe you can try out that fileserver backend to replace that
99 2011-10-05T19:17:25 <dave_largo> so we don't normally upload them, because then we have two copies
100 2011-10-05T19:17:59 <ThomasWaldmann> (assuming that your wiki server can access the filesystem having those interesting files)
101 2011-10-05T19:18:18 <dave_largo> Yes, we can cross mount Moin to the file system for sure.
102 2011-10-05T19:18:33 <dave_largo> If we could make an easy way for them to link to the original documents, that would work
103 2011-10-05T19:18:49 <ThomasWaldmann> that backend will just expose the files under some basedir as if they are wiki items with 1 revision and little metadata
104 2011-10-05T19:19:09 <ThomasWaldmann> read-only, currently
105 2011-10-05T19:19:43 <dave_largo> That's cool, so we are open to testing new ideas for sure, and maybe just moving to 2.0 as I mentioned
106 2011-10-05T19:20:11 <ThomasWaldmann> that backend can be mounted to some part of the namespace like fileserver/* or shorter FS/*
107 2011-10-05T19:20:12 <dave_largo> Our IT department has about 15 people
108 2011-10-05T19:20:52 <ThomasWaldmann> be careful with moving production data to moin2, we can't support migration scenarios from alphaX to alphaY
109 2011-10-05T19:21:19 <dave_largo> Yeah, I won't be doing anything like that...we'll set it up as a sandbox and then come up with ideas for data migration
110 2011-10-05T19:21:34 <ThomasWaldmann> some brasilian guys are currently writing their migration code due to this :))
111 2011-10-05T19:23:31 <brunomartin> ThomasWaldmann: Almost done here! ;-)
112 2011-10-05T19:23:42 <ThomasWaldmann> brunomartin: hehe, cool :)
113 2011-10-05T19:23:43 <dave_largo> How long until you have the regular installer working so I could test that for you?
114 2011-10-05T19:24:14 <ThomasWaldmann> well, it is setup.py
115 2011-10-05T19:24:47 <dave_largo> python setup.py install --force --prefix /usr/local --record=install.log
116 2011-10-05T19:24:50 <dave_largo> is what i issued
117 2011-10-05T19:24:53 <ThomasWaldmann> it is just simpler for us to use virtualenv so we are independant of system code versions, we can just pull whatever we want via pypi
118 2011-10-05T19:25:37 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe try virtualenv, i guess it should be sysadmins friend :)
119 2011-10-05T19:25:50 <dave_largo> Ha, I can check it out.
120 2011-10-05T19:26:19 <ThomasWaldmann> all you need with virtualenv is a supported python version and virtualenv for it
121 2011-10-05T19:26:31 <ThomasWaldmann> about everything else it will fetch when you run quickinstall
122 2011-10-05T19:26:38 <brunomartin> ThomasWaldmann: We are going to try fabric to automate the deploys here... we you share that, when it happens... ;-)
123 2011-10-05T19:26:58 <brunomartin> *will
124 2011-10-05T19:27:24 <ThomasWaldmann> brunomartin: interesting, if one has many machines.
125 2011-10-05T19:27:43 <dave_largo> It would be pretty slick of the upgrader used something like wget to bring down the pages from older versions
126 2011-10-05T19:27:56 <dave_largo> That way users wouldn't have to do mid-level upgrades
127 2011-10-05T19:28:17 <ThomasWaldmann> brunomartin: btw, that direct import seems to be a better way for 1.9 > 2.0. being able to use the index is nice and that doesn't work when using that streaming method with serialization.
128 2011-10-05T19:29:02 <ThomasWaldmann> dave_largo: scraping all stuff from the web interface would be a pain
129 2011-10-05T19:29:23 <dave_largo> It's a pain to upgrade to upgrade too :)
130 2011-10-05T19:29:56 <ThomasWaldmann> but the current method i am working on these days will just require running a moin script command and give it --data19 /srv/moin/my/data_dir
131 2011-10-05T19:30:26 <ThomasWaldmann> dave_largo: if you did not use twikidraw, it might even work with a 1.8 data_dir
132 2011-10-05T19:31:01 <ThomasWaldmann> or *draw, don't remember if we had another one in 1.8
133 2011-10-05T19:31:16 <dave_largo> We aren't using that no.
134 2011-10-05T19:32:30 <dave_largo> So kind of back to my original question, with the current code, could I enter some local users, and build pages with 2.0 and mostly have it work? :)
135 2011-10-05T19:32:41 <ThomasWaldmann> merging those 3 twikidraw files into a single tar file is (IIRC) the only thing that the 1.8 to 1.9 conversion is changing
136 2011-10-05T19:33:39 <ThomasWaldmann> dave_largo: we completely rewrote the storage code in the past few weeks. so if you want to test, use storage-ng branch of the repo
137 2011-10-05T19:33:58 <ThomasWaldmann> or wait until i merged it into default branch (likely within next 10d)
138 2011-10-05T19:33:59 <dave_largo> When will you be merging? I'm off for a week and will be back next week.
139 2011-10-05T19:34:05 <dave_largo> yeah
140 2011-10-05T19:34:08 <dave_largo> I can wait
141 2011-10-05T19:34:18 <ThomasWaldmann> storage got much easier :)
142 2011-10-05T19:34:53 <ThomasWaldmann> it's fun to write stores now. at least if they can sanely support key/value based operation.
143 2011-10-05T19:35:20 <dave_largo> It's been very hard to break old habits and get people to work electronically. Possibly iPads will help with that.
144 2011-10-05T19:35:44 <ThomasWaldmann> :)
145 2011-10-05T19:35:55 <ThomasWaldmann> i guess i still prefer a real keyboard.
146 2011-10-05T19:36:07 <dave_largo> They just want to work in the 20th century still with paper.
147 2011-10-05T19:36:28 <dave_largo> We have about 800 users.
148 2011-10-05T19:36:48 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, do you have ms office documents attached in your wiki?
149 2011-10-05T19:37:12 <dave_largo> We use OpenOffice, and have put some in there yes, but the issue of having duplicate documents kind of negated that.
150 2011-10-05T19:37:39 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, openoffice/libreoffice is already solved, we can index that :)
151 2011-10-05T19:38:01 <ThomasWaldmann> just the proprietary cr*p from ms is still seeking for a solution
152 2011-10-05T19:38:18 <dave_largo> You can check out Beagle and see how they are doing it, I think they are using wv
153 2011-10-05T19:39:17 <dave_largo> Beagle crawls all of our documents each night, works well
154 2011-10-05T19:40:08 <ThomasWaldmann> ehrm, does that project still exist?
155 2011-10-05T19:41:05 <ThomasWaldmann> looks like it is abandoned
156 2011-10-05T19:42:03 <ThomasWaldmann> for moin1.x we used antiword, xls2csv, pptwhatever, etc. but results were quite different, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't extract much
157 2011-10-05T19:43:49 *** raignarok_
158 2011-10-05T19:45:27 *** raignarok
159 2011-10-05T19:47:12 *** greg_f
160 2011-10-05T19:51:53 *** raignarok_
161 2011-10-05T20:01:01 <ThomasWaldmann> dave_largo: i have to go soon. thanks a lot for help offer! just come here if you have questions or suggestions.
162 2011-10-05T20:10:40 * ThomasWaldmann bbl
163 2011-10-05T20:17:02 *** raignarok
164 2011-10-05T20:17:42 *** raignarok
165 2011-10-05T20:28:16 *** raignarok
166 2011-10-05T20:29:53 *** dave_largo
167 2011-10-05T20:31:20 *** raignarok_
168 2011-10-05T20:46:28 *** MattMaker
169 2011-10-05T20:46:45 *** MattMaker
170 2011-10-05T20:48:54 *** raignarok__
171 2011-10-05T20:51:00 *** raignarok_
172 2011-10-05T20:57:56 *** raignarok__
173 2011-10-05T21:14:02 *** raignarok_
174 2011-10-05T21:15:44 *** raignarok
175 2011-10-05T21:34:02 <ThomasWaldmann> re
176 2011-10-05T21:44:12 <brunomartin> ThomasWaldmann: re
177 2011-10-05T21:53:20 *** raignarok_
178 2011-10-05T21:55:11 <ThomasWaldmann> hi brunomartin
179 2011-10-05T22:32:36 <brunomartin> oh, re
180 2011-10-05T22:38:57 *** raignarok
181 2011-10-05T22:43:50 *** LotekThirteen
182 2011-10-05T22:45:32 *** LotekThirteen
183 2011-10-05T22:54:31 *** raignarok
184 2011-10-05T23:13:14 <ThomasWaldmann> yay, whoosh 2.3.1
185 2011-10-05T23:28:13 <dreimark> :)
186 2011-10-05T23:30:20 <brunomartin> bbl
