1 <RenatoSilva> someone *please* add http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/SystemPageLink to Moin code base
   2 <RenatoSilva> when you change page title translation, you not just need to update the references in the po file (see http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/ShouldAlwaysTranslateSystemPageTitles), but much more annoying, you need to update *every* system page containing links for the page
   3 <ThomasWaldmann> RenatoSilva: that's the usual procedure if you rename a page
   4 <RenatoSilva> regular pages, not system pages
   5 <RenatoSilva> system pages are special
   6 <ThomasWaldmann> every page :)
   7 <RenatoSilva> no, system pages are *translatable* by default
   8 <ThomasWaldmann> I am not sure we should specialcase that.
   9 <ThomasWaldmann> We have link markup, using a macro for that reinvents the wheel (except for the translation part).
  10 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: current behavior is annoying for translators: if you rename a page title or actually create a translation page, you need to update every gettext message and *all* system pages
  11 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: link markup? how would it do the same job of that macro?
  12 <ThomasWaldmann> as I said: that is nothing special, you need to update all links for any page you rename
  13 <ThomasWaldmann> not only for sys pages
  14 <TheSheep> how often do you rename pages?
  15 <ThomasWaldmann> RenatoSilva: the problem is rather that this link macro must do all that link markup can do sooner or later.
  16 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: [[<<GetText(SystemPageName)>>]] doesn't work
  17 <ThomasWaldmann> sure it doesn't
  18 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: even if worked, would not work still because we need [[<<GetText(SystemPageName, lang=that page's lang)>>]]
  19 <ThomasWaldmann> so how about avoiding renames by choosing good names from the start? :)
  20 <RenatoSilva> Maybe SystemPageLink could be extended to any page
  21 <RenatoSilva> in fact I don't see much sense in such restriction
  22 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: tell this to all contributors, and ensure they all will follow you
  23 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: I am renaming the pages for fixing the mess
  24 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: such as: I need to translate CategoryCategory, but CategoriaCategoria is locked by another language
  25 <RenatoSilva> that's why I requested http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/MultiLanguagePages btw
  26 <ThomasWaldmann> so do you expect that you create another mess that you need to cleanup later again or why do you want to use that macro?
  27 <dreimark_> looks like an idea for a rewrite for moin 2.0
  28 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: btw, there's also http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/UpdateReferencesWhenRenamingPages if you really wanna talk about page renaming
  29 <ThomasWaldmann> i don't
  30 <RenatoSilva>  so you want to keep the mess? :P
  31 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe you could fix the mess like everybody else does?
  32 <RenatoSilva> of course
  33 <RenatoSilva> but why don't you like the idea if someone write a patch
  34 <RenatoSilva> I would write myself if I had time
  35 <ThomasWaldmann> you didn't answer "so do you expect that you create another mess that you need to cleanup later again or why do you want to use that macro?"
  36 <RenatoSilva> and the way I described there, I believe it woud work amazingly
  37 <ThomasWaldmann> because the macro is not at all places you maybe wish it would be
  38 <ThomasWaldmann> thus, you would have to edit all places linking to sys pages, which is more work than just editing the few ones you rename
  39 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: I want that macro because when I write UmaPáginaDeSistema in some system page, actually I mean "the translation for SomeSystemPage", NOT really "UmaPáginaDeSistema"
  40 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: you must have in mind that there are a LOT of system pages (in pt-br for example) which are currently untranslated
  41 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: if I would start translating them all, I would have a LOT of work on updating the page links
  42 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, I see the point for freshly written stuff. but still, it is duplicating (or tries to) link markup functionality.
  43 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: however I agree it may cause problems (the macro call won't be recognized as a raw link etc)
  44 <RenatoSilva> link markup functionality doesn't include what this macro would do
  45 <ThomasWaldmann> no, but the other way
  46 <ThomasWaldmann> and less powerful and inconsistent, because it is a macro
  47 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. link markup [[foo#bar]], but <<SystemPageLink(foo, anchor="bar")
  48 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. link markup [[foo|bar|class=baz]], but <<SystemPageLink(foo, bar, FAIL)>>
  49 <RenatoSilva> how about the following: if you pass a system page to [[, it tries to get the translation first
  50 <RenatoSilva> so [[WikiName]] in a pt-br page will be rendered as WikiNomes
  51 <ThomasWaldmann> no
  52 <RenatoSilva> why
  53 <ThomasWaldmann> that's black magic
  54 <RenatoSilva> hahahaha
  55 <ThomasWaldmann> one could do it when asked for
  56 <ThomasWaldmann> but, you need a method then fitting into the current param scheme somehow
  57 <RenatoSilva> I don't get you
  58 <ThomasWaldmann> there are 2 sorts of link params right now
  59 <ThomasWaldmann> 1. link tag attrs (class, target, ...)
  60 <ThomasWaldmann> 2. query string args
  61 <ThomasWaldmann> there is no "I have special wishes for processing" sort
  62 <ThomasWaldmann> at least IIRC
  63 <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, i have weird idea :)
  64 <ThomasWaldmann> [[EnglishName||&lang=pt-br]]
  65 <RenatoSilva> my intention is to change [[ to just modify the page name while rendering
  66 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: why &?
  67 <ThomasWaldmann> that will link to EnglishName, but give &lang=pt-br in qs
  68 <dreimark_> ThomasWaldmann: param syntax
  69 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: how about ?action=localize ?
  70 <dreimark_> TheSheep: ^^
  71 <ThomasWaldmann> but what shall moin do when receiving such a request? translate, then redirect?
  72 <TheSheep> dreimark_: I know, but shouldn't it be handled by parser, not dispatcher?
  73 <RenatoSilva> [[EnglishName||&lang=pt-br]] is redundant, as it will be used only in pt-br pages, mostly, and would be repeated for each link in the page
  74 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: yeah
  75 <ThomasWaldmann> when used heavily, that would mean all non-english syspages would use 2 requests
  76 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: it could also just translate and leave the url as is
  77 <ThomasWaldmann> worse
  78 <RenatoSilva> TheSheep: disagree
  79 <dreimark_> that is an other option
  80 <dreimark_> bbl
  81 <TheSheep> or it could be handled by the parser, generating the correct link right away
  82 <RenatoSilva> I believe the <a> msut be translated
  83 <TheSheep> RenatoSilva: why?
  84 <RenatoSilva> and maybe other parts of Moin should be aware that such link in translated/able, so that it tries to translate it everywhere
  85 <ThomasWaldmann> RenatoSilva: you don't want that your pt-br page links to en page, just because user agent has en first?
  86 <RenatoSilva> TheSheep: you would read a sytem page saying "veja RecentChanges", but users have no idea what RecentChanges means, even if the link would redirect to the translation
  87 <ThomasWaldmann> right, it doesn't get translated if based on action-like behaviour(i mean the rendering)
  88 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: the link would be translated to the page's #language, translating to any other lang (or not translating at all) is non-sense
  89 <TheSheep> ok, but if you change the text that is actually displayed, you may destroy the sentence
  90 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so it means that we need some special sort of param
  91 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: a russian user can be reading a portuguese page, that's not a reason to the links be in russian in the portuguese page
  92 <TheSheep> if someone renames the page, for example changing the order of words, it would lead to a completely uncomprehensible sentence in many languages, and to sentence with different meaning in others
  93 <ThomasWaldmann> and the language needs to be explicitely given, otherwise you rely on that there is one single language what might be not true
  94 <RenatoSilva> it is true as long as you don't implement multi-lang pages :)
  95 <ThomasWaldmann> (and if you don't give the language, how shall link parser know that you want special treatment? it would just create a normal link otherwise)
  96 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: it would know because the link is for a system page
  97 <ThomasWaldmann> anyway, it looks like this is rather for moin2+ :)
  98 <TheSheep> you would need 'OldSystemPagesGroup' for that ;)
  99 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: it just needs a search in i18n.strings
 100 <RenatoSilva> TheSheep: destroy the sentence? I don't understand
 101 <ThomasWaldmann> note: one problem of the 1.5 link markup was that it was complex, buggy and doing magic stuff
 102 <ThomasWaldmann> i don't want to have that back :)
 103 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: man I believe we don't need to change the [[ syntax, we just need some action behind the scenes
 104 <TheSheep> RenatoSilva: you cannot just swap out parts of sentences in different languages and expect them to still make sense, even if those parts have the same meaning when read alone
 105 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, maybe someone can c&p this discussion to the relavant wiki pages, so we don't need to repeat it :)
 106 <RenatoSilva> ThomasWaldmann: look: [[RegularPage]] -> ok, the same behavior, nothing changes, [[SystemPage]] --> translate <a> everywhere, for example search fo the translated name would return this entry (ok a bit weird)
 107 <TheSheep> RenatoSilva: suppose you rename FindPage to PageSearching, and there is a sentence that says "You can FindPage by entering some text in the forms there." <-- a quick example, not very plausible, but you get the idea
 108 <RenatoSilva> TheSheep: ok I get the idea, but I would avoid this kind of sentence
 109 <RenatoSilva> TheSheep: and I wonder if any en page has such a thing
 110 <TheSheep> I think it's normal to incorporate page names into sentences like that in wikis, especially the older ones.
 111 <TheSheep> like c2 and meatball
 112 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, show me RecentChanges :)
 113 <RenatoSilva> this sentence woud not have problems with renaming
 114  * ThomasWaldmann has to do some work
 115 <RenatoSilva> TheSheep: well, I would avoid such procedure because it is by nature dangerous as you said
 116 <TheSheep> that's why moin doesn't have a 'rename all links when renaming a page' option